More on 180

Here's another set of comments from my friend and fellow reef aquarist, Joe Jaworski.

Josh,

IMHO, the way I would approach this problem is by process of elimination.

- When did the problem start? What changed in the aquarium (more/less fish, decor, new equipment, change in husbandry, etc.) say +/- 3 weeks around the date when you first noticed the problem?

- For bioload, do you believe that if you had another tank the exact same size but was bare bottom and void of decor, would your existing filtration equipment be adequate?

Here are some of my other thoughts:

High ammonia with zero nitrites can only be caused by three things:

1) Bacteria population are low and yet established(not likely in your setup).

2) Not enough surface area to maintain bacteria populations (not likely either, unless the tank has ALWAYS had an ammonia problem).

3) A natural or man made bactericide that is killing off the bacteria.

I would bet on number 3. Perhaps heavy metals or other toxins in the sand are finally starting to leach. Also, city water may have changed in copper level, trihalomethanes, or other substances that act as antibiotics against nitrosomas.

My reply via email:

Hey Joe,

Thanks for the insightful comment on the blog. I think you nailed it on the head.

One, we can rule out the water as the other tanks are fine, the bacteria colonies perfectly on track. I even tested them all after major water changes -- a couple hours later and a couple days -- and no ammonia, no nitrite, some nitrates, right where it needed to be.

I spent a couple days thinking about what's changed and came up with two glaring issues:

One, I had used Sera "Toxivec" in some abundance when I realized I had not originally cycled the tank properly. This chemical made things works and may have screwed up something... it's been so long ago and I've done so many water changes, some up to 50%, it should be out of the system. But it's something I did that could have changed the chemistry.

Another thing, which I think is more likely, is I treated the tank with aquarium salt to prevent an ich outbreak. I used a lot... way too much. Fish were fine, but after awhile I got salt creep marching out of my cannister filter. Not good.

I diluted the water with about 4 50 percent water changes, 2 a week, and have done numerous other water changes over time, so it should be pure freshwater. However, I have not done a massive, 80 or 90% water change.

That's about it, though. I bought an aquaclear filter over ebay and also had a broken aquaclear motor replaced from the company. I don't see how that could cause these problems, though.

Joe:

Hey Josh,

Salt concentration will have no effect on nitrifying bacteria. And I agree that the Sera product is long gone, both from your water changes and it has probably broken down chemically, too.

It's got be caused by either too much decay (Aside from a dead fish or dirty filters, something else in the tank like gravel, driftwood, dying plants or decayed plant roots, etc). Or not enough aeration- Low oxygen levels will seriously hamper bacteria growth. Might be a good idea to temporarily add a few more airstones and see what happens.

I would also curb the large water changes, because you are removing free floating bacteria which will make the problem worse. Use a product like Kordon Amquel or Seachem Prime to reduce ammonia on a temporary basis. Might not be a bad idea to change or add some Zeolite, although this stuff is easily exhausted by high ammonia.

It's interesting that salt concentration has no effect on the bacteria system. I've had brackish systems and in order to bring a fish up to brackish that had been kept in pure fresh in LFS waters, you need to bring up the salinity slowly, as not to shock the fish. I guess I always assumed it would wipe the bacteria too.

Unfortunately, air stones are out of the picture, due to the oscars playing tether ball with anything plugged to a tube. I actually installed two air stones in my aquaclear filters before reading that the vibrations can harm the impellor or the filter over time, which makes sense.

One thing I thought of is lack of current at the bottom of the tank. When I had the ray, I purposefully kept the intake tubes short as not to suck up the sand. They are all still very short, the two AC's penetrating to about half the depth of the tank. I'm going to order some extention parts and if that doesn't stir things up at the bottom.

I'm really hoping and counting on this bacteria culture I ordered from biodigesters.net.

Time can only tell.

I hope these entries and these awesome comments from both Sherry and Joe will help others experiencing this same "newbie" problem.

Josh

180 Update

I apologize for the long inactvity.

Short version, 180's still arsed, as they say in parts of England/Ireland.

I lost the smaller blood parrot too.

Big oscar, now 12 inches from tip of tail to mouth, is the terror of the tank. Going to have to do something about the bastard.

Ammonia on the up and up, as always.

I'd like to now share some wonderful advice from a couple commenters. In the first comment you're about to read, you'll learn about a bacteria product that's akin to lab grade Biospira, but apparently beats it with a stick.

I ordered some and just dosed the 180 gallon. I'm very excited about the results.

Anywhere, here's commenter Sherry:

Josh,

I had a crash once (40 years experience, background in biology) and it turns out local store as well - massive fish die off during day our tanks underwent partial water change - right before my eyes, and of course changing water made it worse! (I had just changed 1/4 water (I do more frequent partial, with aged, prefiltered water).

Turns out construction in NYC midtown area a block away affected water. So even with experience stuff happens.

I would always condition water...there is a lot more then chlorine now in most water and it affects the "good" bacteria even if the fish are marginally affected.

Also, I would leave filters running as well when you do water changes. (just a few minutes, sometimes seconds of air can kill the bacteria or stress them to reduce their efficacy) (if the water amount changed is too low for filters to keep running, do more frequent partial...I think this replicates nature better(in most cases ie marsh, swamps of course don't apply.)

I think you are correct in that by removing wood and hence removing substrate for bacteria which threw everything off.

I feel the tank is a bit overstocked but not much you can do if you haven't more space except to figure out what's going on. I do two water changes (and that's for a 20 gallon) smaller partial change twice weekly, so as not to disturb bacteria (noticed it did when I did larger less often).

I have harder water as well so have to be more careful (any ammonia gets more toxic - sorry can't remember all the chemistry right now)

I would try (just a hunch) some great bio bacteria. I have two different ones I have used (only takes a pinch and still have bags of samples, as a little goes a long way.)

They are from pharmaceutical and extremely great quality. (far superior to pet store stuff) (industrial uses IE ponds so on - I can't gush enough about either one)

I spoke original to the biologist at the outlet and he took much time to explain how using it would rid my tanks of what little algae their was and provide more co2 to the plants (it did) Due to their research (proprietary enzymes which feed cultures) it does far more then control algae in industrial situations and ponds.

Things were balanced.

http://www.biodigesters.net/pond-products.htm

BD-C Takes Another Pathway

BD-C targets phosphorus and nitrogen that promote algae growth while utilizing ammonia, nitrates and nitrites as additional food sources. Our de-nitrification process is much faster and more effective. Rather than step breakdown from ammonia into nitrate and then into nitrite, all are consumed simultaneously by BD-C.

This promotes an overall reduction of ammonia compounds.

Addition Benefits Of BD-C

1. Eliminate odors by digesting the organic bottom solids and the naturally occurring bacteria that produce odors.
2. Decrease oxygen requirements for oxidation of organic matter within the water column, thus increasing available oxygen for fish.
3. Reduce bottom solids by converting organic matter to carbon dioxide and water.
4. Eliminates pond scum by digesting algae’s primary food source (nitrogen and phosphorus). As the algae dies from lack of food it is digested by the Biodigesters.
5. Improves water clarity and quality by digesting suspended organics in the water column.
6. Biodigesters, which can potentially extend the life of a filtration system, would mean lower maintenance costs and more effective optimization of water conditions.

How We Do It

Biodigesters are so prolific they multiply (doubling the cell count) every 15-20 minutes. If you start out with one cell in fifteen minutes you have two and so on. In 8 hours you will have 17-million and in twenty-four hours you have a 1 with one hundred and twenty six zeros behind it. They simply out number the bacteria present in the system.

The Selection Process

There are over 3,000 known bacterial strains. Our bacteria and enzymes are selected for their ability to aggressively breakdown the targeted substrate. First, we select only facultative strains that can operate in aerobic (with oxygen) or anaerobic (oxygen depleted) situations. Our bacteria are most effective in an aerobic state working 5-7 times faster. We also take into consideration other factors like resistance to; high and low pH, chemical shock and temperature. BD can tolerate a Ph of 4.5 to 9.5 without dying off, but the closer to neutral pH of 7 the better. They are resistant to disinfectants like chlorine up to 150 PPM and remain active in temperature ranges of 50-140 degrees F.

Here is the pharma (fish of course, lol) site.. just call and ask as he sent me a sample (brilliant man)when I ordered something else.
..................

Also (just brain storming here) how deep is your substrate (is it planted) sorry don't have time (late) to read all of your threads (I had saved link and was filing then reread). I have Anubias and other plants on wood so have a very little layer of sand/small pebbles for bio culture. If too deep esp with no roots it can get nasty (as you probably already know). My rooted plants are in plant trays (black glass dishes found at thrift shop) along the lines of Dr. Innes (who's works I grew up on way back when).

I use two filters per 20 gallon tank (going to set up 75 with tons of wood which is soaking for months now - will go slow - this gets me a bit worried, lol, but going to over filtered that as well). (I reduce flow on one so one side is more peaceful - depends on fish. I always highly understock tanks as well.

That said perhaps with a smaller additional filter (overhang at back??) it might help.

Those ammonia chip absorbers until you can get bio bugs and regain balance? Not a long term solution but will help to remove ammonia for now if nothing else is working.

I change each every other week, so that one is working with cultures while other is being changed.

Regardless of what’s going on in the tank filtration and cultures should balance it so mho maybe too big a bio load for the set up and my first instinct was to get a super grade bio culture such as the ones I've used and add with each water change.

And once that's going less "stirring of the pot" is best mho IE if you do gravel vac - only part each time. Less more frequent water changes. Bugs get disturbed easily I’ve found out.

One more thought, run a small pump at the bottom level to keep the water at lower levels circulating... I once had (link somewhere, hence my filing a bit each night) to a guy who had devised a system for his huge tanks with tubes and pumps (not sure if that is correct name, but just a water pump) to keep any “dead” areas circulating. I am setting up a small Paludarium and need to figure this out as there is a space under the rocks which will be dead water (may fill in with foam then seal with silicone).

Forgive if I've stepped on your very experienced toes, lol, just tossing any and all things out there in case something was missed and based on my past oops! Best Sherry

In rereading forgot the other fish pharmecuital site. Wonderful cultures as well. Maybe try both not sure which I would recommend over the other. (again even if originally costly, works wonders and last for years). I even gave much away when I do fish rescues and still have lots.

http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/?gclid=COzz6_SMyY0CFSMKGgod0CIQMg