Ammonia: Trials of the Newb
I've got an embarrassing admission.
I've got an ammonia problem.
And it's a BIG ammonia problem.
One that's been going on for... oh, at least two or three months now.
Ammonia spikes are the bane of the fish newb, so often their first big problem with fish keeping. As we all know ammonia spikes are the initial phase in the nitrogen cycle.
They happen in every new fish tank.
However, they are NOT supposed to happen in well established tanks.
Tanks that are almost two years old.
I've had clear and present ammonia readings, ranging from .25 to 2, in my 180 gallon big cichlid tank. The water has been hazy and off-again/on-again smelly for months.
I believe this is what finished my firemouth. Also the second blue acara. I also attribute this to the red oscar's lateral line erosion.
I have not spoken about this sooner because frankly I'm baffled. I don't understand why this is happening at all. I'd wanted to be able to solve the problem, and then share how I solved it, but everything I've tried has failed.
I had several good theories, but each have been shattered:
I maintain good husbandry. I do a water change once a week, never less than once every two weeks, often 20-30%. I make sure the water flow in the filters is where it should be.
I do not overfeed and the tank is not overcrowded -- (180 gallons, 2 adult oscars, three severums [one half the size of an oscar, the other medium-sized, the last much smaller], two blood parrots, 1 bala shark [outgrew 55 gallon and was terrorizing my ghost knife], a stunted 2 -inch blue acara, and 1 6-inch raph cat. Yes, tank's at capacity, but certainly not overcrowded, especially with the filtration and my weekly water changes.
Filters include the Iron Man-powered Rena XP 4 and two Aquaclear 110s. Each are full of biorings and biostars, but not enough, in the case of the Rena, to reduce water flow.
Water current is healthy and strong.
I did a wholesale chemical test an hour ago. pH down, as expected, probably below 6, which is indicitave of bacterial issues. Ammonia at 1, nitrite zero, nitrates at 10. I've been doing water changes every five days or so, often 40% or more, so the nitrate reading was not a surprise. I was expecting some nitrite to show but none did.
I tested the ammonia test kit on my tap and also another tank. No readings, as expected, showing it's not an issue with the test kit.
This is a frustrating problem and it's getting beyond me. These are all large fish and I can't just quarantine a couple of them to try to reduce the ammonia output. I've even cut off feeding for four days and the ammonia readings continue to stay level.
One thing I only recently theorized is the substrate, which is playsand. That doesn't hold bacteria anywhere near as well as gravel. And I also don't have any biowheels running. When I removed the driftwood, this may have shocked the system even more, as a sizeable venue for the bacteria was now gone.
This may have been compounded by my most recent filter cleaning, where I hosed off the filter sponge in tapwater. The biorings were protected but they may have been exposed to air for too long.
As it's such a massive system, a water change can take up to an hour. I usually turn off the filters during the W/C and the Aquaclear HOB's run dry as the water vaccuum breaks.
I'll let the filters run next time and not do such a big change. We'll see what's what then.
I run a whole-house water filter that removes chlorine, and I change the filter every two months as I do a lot of water changes on my numerous tanks. I have not always added water conditioner (Aquasafe). In the future I'll also add the conditioner just to be sure, even though in the past, in my other tanks, I've changed out 15-20% of water without any chlorine filtration and suffered no ill effects.
I'm stumped on this one. My best guess is to let the system work itself out now, with only small water changes, with the filters going full force the entire time, with plent of anti-chlorine treatment. Minimal feedings and keep the surface of the water lower than usual to promote oxygen exchange.
I'll keep you posted.
Josh, back in newbsville
joshday.com
I've got an ammonia problem.
And it's a BIG ammonia problem.
One that's been going on for... oh, at least two or three months now.
Ammonia spikes are the bane of the fish newb, so often their first big problem with fish keeping. As we all know ammonia spikes are the initial phase in the nitrogen cycle.
They happen in every new fish tank.
However, they are NOT supposed to happen in well established tanks.
Tanks that are almost two years old.
I've had clear and present ammonia readings, ranging from .25 to 2, in my 180 gallon big cichlid tank. The water has been hazy and off-again/on-again smelly for months.
I believe this is what finished my firemouth. Also the second blue acara. I also attribute this to the red oscar's lateral line erosion.
I have not spoken about this sooner because frankly I'm baffled. I don't understand why this is happening at all. I'd wanted to be able to solve the problem, and then share how I solved it, but everything I've tried has failed.
I had several good theories, but each have been shattered:
- Theory #1 : My canister filter's intake and outtake hoses were too long and thus water flow was negligible, barely existent. I cut off a couple inches from each hose and bam, water gushing as intended. By all rights this SHOULD have fixed the problem as it's known that a clogged filter, especially the one that's your mainstay, causes ammonia spikes and mini-cycles.
- Theory #2 : Stale pockets of water within a rectangular terracotta cave. I smashes the rectangle, making two three-dimensional isosceles triangles cobbled together, allowing for water flow to keep the interior moving. This did nothing.
- Theory #3: A bigass piece of driftwood anchored down by slate pieces. I hypothesized anaerobic conditions under the wood base and slate, causing ammonia build-up. Indeed, when I removed the wood and slate pieces, there were hydrogen sulfide bubbles that could have peeled roof shingles, but it turned out not to be the source of the ammonia issue.
I maintain good husbandry. I do a water change once a week, never less than once every two weeks, often 20-30%. I make sure the water flow in the filters is where it should be.
I do not overfeed and the tank is not overcrowded -- (180 gallons, 2 adult oscars, three severums [one half the size of an oscar, the other medium-sized, the last much smaller], two blood parrots, 1 bala shark [outgrew 55 gallon and was terrorizing my ghost knife], a stunted 2 -inch blue acara, and 1 6-inch raph cat. Yes, tank's at capacity, but certainly not overcrowded, especially with the filtration and my weekly water changes.
Filters include the Iron Man-powered Rena XP 4 and two Aquaclear 110s. Each are full of biorings and biostars, but not enough, in the case of the Rena, to reduce water flow.
Water current is healthy and strong.
I did a wholesale chemical test an hour ago. pH down, as expected, probably below 6, which is indicitave of bacterial issues. Ammonia at 1, nitrite zero, nitrates at 10. I've been doing water changes every five days or so, often 40% or more, so the nitrate reading was not a surprise. I was expecting some nitrite to show but none did.
I tested the ammonia test kit on my tap and also another tank. No readings, as expected, showing it's not an issue with the test kit.
This is a frustrating problem and it's getting beyond me. These are all large fish and I can't just quarantine a couple of them to try to reduce the ammonia output. I've even cut off feeding for four days and the ammonia readings continue to stay level.
One thing I only recently theorized is the substrate, which is playsand. That doesn't hold bacteria anywhere near as well as gravel. And I also don't have any biowheels running. When I removed the driftwood, this may have shocked the system even more, as a sizeable venue for the bacteria was now gone.
This may have been compounded by my most recent filter cleaning, where I hosed off the filter sponge in tapwater. The biorings were protected but they may have been exposed to air for too long.
As it's such a massive system, a water change can take up to an hour. I usually turn off the filters during the W/C and the Aquaclear HOB's run dry as the water vaccuum breaks.
I'll let the filters run next time and not do such a big change. We'll see what's what then.
I run a whole-house water filter that removes chlorine, and I change the filter every two months as I do a lot of water changes on my numerous tanks. I have not always added water conditioner (Aquasafe). In the future I'll also add the conditioner just to be sure, even though in the past, in my other tanks, I've changed out 15-20% of water without any chlorine filtration and suffered no ill effects.
I'm stumped on this one. My best guess is to let the system work itself out now, with only small water changes, with the filters going full force the entire time, with plent of anti-chlorine treatment. Minimal feedings and keep the surface of the water lower than usual to promote oxygen exchange.
I'll keep you posted.
Josh, back in newbsville
joshday.com
posted by Josh Day at 5:34 PM
6 Comments:
Josh,
I had a crash once (40 years experience, background in biology) and it turns out local store as well - massive fish die off during day our tanks underwent partial water change - right before my eyes, and of course changing water made it worse! (I had just changed 1/4 water (I do more frequent partial, with aged, prefiltered water).
Turns out construction in NYC midtown area a block away affected water. So even with experience stuff happens.
I would always condition water...there is a lot more then chlorine now in most water and it affects the "good" bacteria even if the fish are marginally affected.
Also, I would leave filters running as well when you do water changes. (just a few minutes, sometimes seconds of air can kill the bacteria or stress them to reduce their efficacy) (if the water amount changed is too low for filters to keep running, do more frequent partial...I think this replicates nature better(in most cases ie marsh, swamps of course don't apply.)
I think you are correct in that by removing wood and hence removing substrate for bacteria which threw everything off.
I feel the tank is a bit overstocked but not much you can do if you haven't more space except to figure out what's going on. I do two water changes (and that's for a 20 gallon) smaller partial change twice weekly, so as not to disturb bacteria (noticed it did when I did larger less often).
I have harder water as well so have to be more careful (any ammonia gets more toxic - sorry can't remember all the chemistry right now)
I would try (just a hunch) some great bio bacteria. I have two different ones I have used (only takes a pinch and still have bags of samples, as a little goes a long way.)
They are from pharmaceutical and extremely great quality. (far superior to pet store stuff) (industrial uses IE ponds so on - I can't gush enough about either one)
I spoke original to the biologist at the outlet and he took much time to explain how using it would rid my tanks of what little algae their was and provide more co2 to the plants (it did) Due to their research (proprietary enzymes which feed cultures) it does far more then control algae in industrial situations and ponds.
Things were balanced.
http://www.biodigesters.net/pond-products.htm
BD-C Takes Another Pathway
BD-C targets phosphorus and nitrogen that promote algae growth while utilizing ammonia, nitrates and nitrites as additional food sources. Our de-nitrification process is much faster and more effective. Rather than step breakdown from ammonia into nitrate and then into nitrite, all are consumed simultaneously by BD-C.
This promotes an overall reduction of ammonia compounds.
Addition Benefits Of BD-C
1. Eliminate odors by digesting the organic bottom solids and the naturally occurring bacteria that produce odors.
2. Decrease oxygen requirements for oxidation of organic matter within the water column, thus increasing available oxygen for fish.
3. Reduce bottom solids by converting organic matter to carbon dioxide and water.
4. Eliminates pond scum by digesting algae’s primary food source (nitrogen and phosphorus). As the algae dies from lack of food it is digested by the Biodigesters.
5. Improves water clarity and quality by digesting suspended organics in the water column.
6. Biodigesters, which can potentially extend the life of a filtration system, would mean lower maintenance costs and more effective optimization of water conditions.
How We Do It
Biodigesters are so prolific they multiply (doubling the cell count) every 15-20 minutes. If you start out with one cell in fifteen minutes you have two and so on. In 8 hours you will have 17-million and in twenty-four hours you have a 1 with one hundred and twenty six zeros behind it. They simply out number the bacteria present in the system.
The Selection Process
There are over 3,000 known bacterial strains. Our bacteria and enzymes are selected for their ability to aggressively breakdown the targeted substrate. First, we select only facultative strains that can operate in aerobic (with oxygen) or anaerobic (oxygen depleted) situations. Our bacteria are most effective in an aerobic state working 5-7 times faster. We also take into consideration other factors like resistance to; high and low pH, chemical shock and temperature. BD can tolerate a Ph of 4.5 to 9.5 without dying off, but the closer to neutral pH of 7 the better. They are resistant to disinfectants like chlorine up to 150 PPM and remain active in temperature ranges of 50-140 degrees F.
Here is the pharma (fish of course, lol) site.. just call and ask as he sent me a sample (brilliant man)when I ordered something else.
..................
Also (just brain storming here) how deep is your substrate (is it planted) sorry don't have time (late) to read all of your threads (I had saved link and was filing then reread). I have Anubias and other plants on wood so have a very little layer of sand/small pebbles for bio culture. If too deep esp with no roots it can get nasty (as you probably already know). My rooted plants are in plant trays (black glass dishes found at thrift shop) along the lines of Dr. Innes (who's works I grew up on way back when).
I use two filters per 20 gallon tank (going to set up 75 with tons of wood which is soaking for months now - will go slow - this gets me a bit worried, lol, but going to over filtered that as well). (I reduce flow on one so one side is more peaceful - depends on fish. I always highly understock tanks as well.
That said perhaps with a smaller additional filter (overhang at back??) it might help.
Those ammonia chip absorbers until you can get bio bugs and regain balance? Not a long term solution but will help to remove ammonia for now if nothing else is working.
I change each every other week, so that one is working with cultures while other is being changed.
Regardless of what’s going on in the tank filtration and cultures should balance it so mho maybe too big a bio load for the set up and my first instinct was to get a super grade bio culture such as the ones I've used and add with each water change.
And once that's going less "stirring of the pot" is best mho IE if you do gravel vac - only part each time. Less more frequent water changes. Bugs get disturbed easily I’ve found out.
One more thought, run a small pump at the bottom level to keep the water at lower levels circulating... I once had (link somewhere, hence my filing a bit each night) to a guy who had devised a system for his huge tanks with tubes and pumps (not sure if that is correct name, but just a water pump) to keep any “dead” areas circulating. I am setting up a small Paludarium and need to figure this out as there is a space under the rocks which will be dead water (may fill in with foam then seal with silicone).
Forgive if I've stepped on your very experienced toes, lol, just tossing any and all things out there in case something was missed and based on my past oops! Best Sherry
Forgot to add, with the use of these cultures, my water smells "sweet" now... that is what I go by now when determing how everything is going (Like Chinese Medicine) Best to you, Sherry
As mentioned it's late and I am tired.
In rereading forgot the other fish pharmecuital site. Wonderful cultures as well. Maybe try both not sure which I would recommend over the other. (again even if originally costly, works wonders and last for years). I even gave much away when I do fish rescues and still have lots.
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/?gclid=COzz6_SMyY0CFSMKGgod0CIQMg
Sherry, thank you for your thoughtful comments and very helpful suggestions.
And thanks so much for the links to those bacteria products -- I'd never heard of those before. I'm absolutely going to buy one today.
Ammonia is still present. Lost the big blood parrot the other day.
The sandbed was too deep. I've removed a large amount, leaving only enough to dust the bottom. This may have helped as the stuff I pulled out was black with sludge. I managed to keep get most of the filthy water out of the tank along with the sand... the bucket I was using for the sand was black.
Would it be okay with you if I used your comments in a new blog post? I think they could help a lot of people -- especially the links to those products.
I'd always assumed you needed to be part of a bonafide research project or at a university to have access to the non-pet trade bacteria products. Great to know it's available to the layman hobbyist!
Oh, and here's a youtube video of the tank with director's commentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ_wYRKkm8k
Josh,
IMHO, the way I would approach this problem is by process of elimination.
- When did the problem start? What changed in the aquarium (more/less fish, decor, new equipment, change in husbandry, etc.) say +/- 3 weeks around the date when you first noticed the problem?
- For bioload, do you believe that if you had another tank the exact same size but was bare bottom and void of decor, would your existing filtration equipment be adequate?
Here are some of my other thoughts:
High ammonia with zero nitrites can only be caused by three things:
1) Bacteria population are low and yet established(not likely in your setup).
2) Not enough surface area to maintain bacteria populations (not likely either, unless the tank has ALWAYS had an ammonia problem).
3) A natural or man made bactericide that is killing off the bacteria.
I would bet on number 3. Perhaps heavy metals or other toxins in the sand are finally starting to leach. Also, city water may have changed in copper level, trihalomethanes, or other substances that act as antibiotics against nitrosomas.
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